Hey all,

After I saw DIII was coming out, I decided to go back and play the old games. Unfortunately, DII bores me, and I couldn't find my DI disk. Hence, me downloading this mod.

So far, I've really enjoyed it. Great job! Perhaps the other melee classes are a bit more durable, but playing a bard definitely takes me back to playing a warrior in DI - having to strafe while walking up to succubi, trying to find chokepoints in the map so that I'm not surrounded, etc. I just got to act V at level 31. I think i'll try to do a book and/or boss run or two and hope for the best. Is there a good place to find runes?

I'm guessing that the bard will to come into its own once attack speed starts to speed up a bit. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen for many many levels, and I found myself using two handed weapons to get things done for the first dozen levels or so. When there is more than one attacker, concentrate is really the only way to do dependable damage because other special attacks take too long and can be interrupted.

In terms of balance, I have to say that the end of act and other various minibosses are pretty weak. Sure, they have a ton of HP, but at no point since Duriel while battling them have I feared for my char's safety. Perhaps more varied attacks would help. Perhaps it gets harder in Act V.

Mobs are much more terrifying. Perhaps too much so, but overall, it's great.

Finally, RENEGE should be a runeword, and I think it could turn into an interesting one.

Glad you're enjoying the mod Your feedback is appreciated.

There is no particular place for rune runs, but they are likely to drop in the Halls of the Blind and in the Goat Shrineroom (which you cannot access yet).

Thanks for the missing runeword, it will be added in patch v1.02.

Thanks for the reply!

I have played with a couple other runewords that don't work that I could send you via PM.

A bug with Act V mercs: if you try to equip two swords, the second disappears.

I had one access violation crash, but fortunately it happened right after I took a WP, so no lost progress. No idea what caused it. If it helps (doubt it will), I had just done a few dozen runs of the unique near the WP in act 4.

Yes, PM me the runewords, please

As for your access violation crash, you're the first to report such thing in Act 4. I have no idea what might have caused it either.

I believe it was actually in Act 5, after hopping down to the caves waypoint.

If you use the same strategies or even have the same luck on book drops as I did you may find nightmare easy. Hell is a different story.

I luckily found a book for the fanaticism style aura, which has been quite helpful, especially with the +2 skills from a certain (obvious) runeword. My barb merc has made act 5 a breeze.

Question: can the barb mercs block? I have given mine a high-block shield but am unsure whether it is really helping him stay alive. I generally preferred d2classic to d2exp, so if this a dumb question, I apologize.

well ... i had several access violation crashes (more than 5) throughout the whole game - but i can't remember in which areas or even acts.

That's strange because the game has been virtually 100 percent crash free since beta 4 (I think I had 1 only that I reported and was likely fixed).

Here's an update.

My bard completed nightmare ~level 61. After starting Hell, I decided getting a few more levels would be helpful and ran Baal several times. Now restarting hell just shy of level 68.



Bugs:
-Two times in Act 1, after attacking and being charged by one of the horned demons, I was stuck in place, requiring me to restart the game.

-Rooms in the bloody caverns are sometimes missing the SE wall. Not sure if it's intentional. It looks a little goofy.

-Are there different kinds of Full Healing/Mana potions? Sometimes shift clicking does not work for putting these into my belt. This is especially true when going from act to act.



Balance:
-The comments about Nmare are accurate. Your char finally has some skills that are useful. With frenzy (finally), I flew through.

-It seems I get a weapon upgrade from shopping/gambling much more often than in normal. Perhaps better weapons should become more quickly available in normal?

-A certain +100% damage runeword starting with Ti is unbalanced. It has no negative consequences for mercenaries. Hence, my barb merc has it in his helm, armor, and shield. I think both this and the Ra.. runeword should have their damage toned down a little.

-Failed sets are frustrating. High durability magic items make me sad.

-Drop tables: I have found the unique hunter's bow and claymore at least 5-10 times each. Boots (as opposed to heavy boots, etc) fall with amazing regularity.


I would have to say that for normal and nmare, the barb merc (+runewords) is definitely the best for the bard. The bard is not a tank, so having another melee friend around is quite helpful. The act 2 merc has always been less durable, and since he doesn't receive benefits from bard's songs, he is not really a useful merc for the bard presently.

The dragon kick skill is hugely useful in the right contexts. I wish I had found a book sooner. The bard works best picking off an enemy or two at a time. As long as the bard is attacking faster than she is being attacked, she wins the battle. This skill's utility is in its knockback and hit recovery animation.

The skill is also very limited. The damage is quite unimpressive: it appears that damage enhancing runewords do not enhance the skill's damage, and options for boots are rather slim. Finally, if the goal was to give the bard a skill that will allow it to confront PIs, this is not the skill. The fireball damage is proportional to the physical damage the bard does to the monster it is attacking. The skill only activates when a successful hit on the monster is executed, and getting high ar with this skill is rather difficult.



That's all for now - I guess we'll see how hell goes.

Thanks for a long and helpful feedback post



Looks like a Blizzard screw-up, I don't think I can do anything about it. Did you try a town portal when in such situation?



It's not intentional, it's a side effect of widening the corridors



Work in progress



I don't get this one...

When a unique is rolled but cannot spawn, for example, in an item class where no unique exists or if the monster is too low level to drop the unique, a rare with higher durability will spawn. Similarly, if a set item is rolled and cannot spawn, it is turned into a high durability magic item.

Significantly more detail can be found here:
http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=392254

After I froze, I tried it to see if I could make a portal and sneak back to town. It did not cause the problem.

I've started hell. I'm not gaining many levels, as it takes me too long to kill monsters, so I tend to frenzy past them. Can you recommend a good place to level up in the low 70s?

There are no set items in BTH.

The Chamber of Bone and the Hall of the Blind are the best in any difficult for books (but the skeletons in the chamber of bone block creating more difficulty). As far as leveling, I usually use the Horozon levels in Act II, because then you get plenty of money for gambling as well. There is no place where there aren't physical immunes though except early act 1 (not counting the uniques) unless you get lucky and act 5. For melee characters it's a bit tough to find an area you can plow through. If you saw my screenshot of my character, you'd notice the fairly low character level I defeated the game at. This was for several reasons. One being that I died alot and didn't care, because the games end kept coming closer and I could usually hold my own against most groups. The second is that I didn't stick around and level before defeating Diablo in Act 5. I hadn't played it in 2-3 months and just quickly finished to create a new character. I was impatient. For a better experience, leveling might be recommended. But then you said you were going to do that anyway.

Playing an easy area, like late nightmare at a high level even if you don't level up might help, since you can keep finding basic stat potions.

As far as bad drops. It's designed to give you alot of junk. Finding good equipment outside of town is rare. The monsters like chewing on them, it's a way of enhancing realism. (joking about the realism part)

Right. I agree with everything you said. I'm also pretty sure that the game still tries to roll (nonexistent) set items, which then turn blue. At some point, I'll do some boss runs with high mf and verify.

I did forget that if you have any particular boss you can defeat with minimal effort it's alwasy good to go after then since you're more likely to get really good items to kill things faster, to level up faster. But the bard weapon drop issue hasn't been fixed yet, so it would be armor items only. But I'm guessing you knew at least half of this anyway.

First-time player of a D2 mod here. I've currently got a Lvl33 bard just starting Act 4 Norm. It's taken some time to get used to the increased difficulty. I'm not really a D2 "master" by any means. I re-installed D2 after a long hiatus just to play this mod, and have been lurking on this forum for some time.

I'm curious to know what kinds of weapons other bard chars did/are using around this stage. I'm still using 2 act 1 wrist swords. One has slight enhanced damage plus 2 elementals, while the other one has 2 elemental damages. I think one was crafted by the blacksmith in act 1 and the other I found gambling when in Act 2. Since then, I haven't found anything better via drops or gambling. The only way I was able to survive the end of Act 2 and all of Act 3 was by moonlighting as an archer to slow down (cold) onrushing hordes and to pick off all those annoying ranged attacks.

Maybe my problem is a lack of runeword use? I've only got one in use, the TI-based damage enhanced in a helm.


I disagree. The runeword you mention is very helpful for my bard char. The base damage of the claw-type weapons is so low that they need all the help they can get.


I'm using the archer merc from act 1, so I don't know what the act 2 merc does. But why would the bard's songs not give him any benefits?

Edit: just noticed you were in act 4 normal. For some reason I read nightmare, so my suggestion that you get an act 5 merc is seriously unhelpful (ha!).

The bard struggles in normal, and part of that is because upgrading weapons in normal is hard. Just remember, physical damage > elemental damage, especially with runewords. It is sometimes nice to have cold to slow down enemies, but that's about all. Try shopping for a weapon with decent damage.

The cold merc from act 1 is, unfortunately, probably your best bet at this point. (although if her level is too low, an act 3 merc might work better for you) For the time being, try getting her a high damage bow and a couple runewords.

I found the unique monster near the waypoint in ac 4 was an easy one for acquiring money/items at this level. I might recommend you try running him, although he does get easier once you have a barb merc.

The lack of damage enhancement with the act 2 merc is a bug.

My point with the runeword items is that for normal and nightmare, no other item even comes close in terms of utility. Unless I was mfing, I ONLY used the Ra... runeword in helm and armor, and my barb merc ONLY used the Ti... runewod. There is no reason to even pick up armor or helms. Which is a shame, because I've found a couple cool unique helms. How bout instead of these runewords being (essentially) required items, we boost the damage by other means? Say, by increasing claw damage or skill damage?

So, in conclusion, everything will get easier in a little while, once you have a barb merc and a couple useful skills.

I honestly never used bows or mercs. The reason I was able to get through it, is I did shopping runs. Act 2 to 3 doesn't really have a major difference in weapon damage, but act 4 should have sufficient weaponry. In that act all you have to do is go into the first cave level and come back (if you're not at the waypoint yet) and keep looking until you find something. I believe both vendors sell Bardish style weapons. His suggestion of using cold damage is critical as well.
Finding an item that gives cold damage that isn't a weapon is very powerful because you can then concentrate on getting high damage vs cold damage and you don't have to use gems or particular affixes to achieve that goal. You can quite literally swap for any weapon at that point.
It is true that runewords often are better then any other item. But it's luck as to whether you actually get that rune needed. My barbarian didn't get it until partway into act 3, he was using different weapons up to that point. I don't really know what the Ti runeword is, don't think I ever used it. I'll have to ask Onyx about it later. Also, if you don't have weapon block, that can be a character killer. Search for books without advancing if needed, until you find at least one. I don't think I got more then 3 books in it the whole game (bad luck) but I was still able to defeat the game.
Also, luring the monsters into smaller groups is critical. So don't get rid of any books that give you increased speed, that's essential as well. Being a bionic woman has it's advantages.
Another tactic if you're having a hard time hitting a monster. Instead of attacking, wait for them to hit. They right after taking damage, swing you're blades. It's a guaranteed hit if you have a good roll and it won't be interrupted. Interruption comes mostly from when you attack first and they are attacking after you swing. Then no matter what you do, you can often miss and it's hard to get out of that. I think people were saying that's a D2 bug or something, but it's even more obvious with BTH's increased difficulty.

Hope that helps.

Edit: Oh, and unless you have some really good items from luck already, gambling is essential in normal difficulty until you have good equipment. But your not going to find uber equipment most of the time, item quality has been toned down. Also, I'd go for high armor value over using a normal item to put runewords on it. It's essential to have decent defense (unless you've perhaps found a runeword that does just that, I don't think I have). Don't make the mistake of putting to many points into other stats. Put them into health. Only get enough strength or dex to equip the next weapon in the next act (but at first it's ok to have more, then put all into health after that). One strategy I used was to look at the weapons in Hell from an old character and use that number as a minimum value for dex and strength (but I know you probably can't use that since it's likely one of your first characters). But I don't want to give away everything. But I'm close.

Thanks for the tips norville and D2 MOD, especially on the weapon choice. See, I always assumed elemental was the way to go since the wrist sword base damage was so low. I realize the skills that increase damage only apply to base and not elemental, but that is also why I have been relying so much on lightening and cold damage types. I mean, doubling 6-10 to 12-20 seems less inviting than 6-10 + damage song + 1-22 lightening, + some cold, etc. I've passed up many "plain" with moderately enhanced damage, or those with life stealing, in favor of my current ones. I might have a few unused socketed ones in my stash, but my trouble now with adding more runeword items is the scarceness of plain 2 socket helms and armors that aren't Act1-class (low armor).

Which brings me to a question or two. How important is the armor value? I.e. how is the hit probability from a given monster related to my defense rating? Norville seems to say the armor value is less important, which is opposite of D2 MOD. Of course there is no "right" answer, only opinions, but it would be interesting to know your arguments. Also, does anyone know the numerical relation between AR, defense, and hit chance?

My cold Act 1 merc is almost the same level as me, and her defense value is 2x or 3x higher than mine, but she still gets killed a lot. Part of that is due to being dumb as a stump and not getting out of the way, for example when being pummeled by 3 or 4 ranged attackers! (have to run away to drag her with me)
I do have some points in weapon block, along with points in other useful skills. I did a number of book runs back in the low LVL 20s to get some levels & skills for late Act 2 'cause I was getting thrashed. I have been reading posts for some time, so I knew to add many points to health.

On the Ti- and RA- runeword issue, there's not a huge difference in the stats IMHO. The TI-word has slightly better +dmg to undead and it adds slightly to life instead of subtracting, but it does not add to AR.

Long post, so let me wrap up by saying I found the Horazon's (sp?) tunnels, the unique after, and 4 gold chests thereafter pretty good for book and gold farming (a fairly short run). It should be noted that both I and my merc were wearing helms which greatly enhanced magic and gold drops during these runs.

I prefer the Ra... runeword for my char because i found the life drop was easier to recoup and because I was having such a hard time with AR. But you're right, both are very similar.

Check diabloii.net's forums and its strategy compendium for information on chance to hit.

I completely ignored defense for my bard. Sure, if from time to time I found a better 2 socket armor or helm, I would remake whatever runeword. But I think for most of the way through nightmare, my armor was leather.

This is generally how I approach a character class such as the bard. There is no skill yielding higher defense (that one would realistically use), as there is for other melee classes. The useful runewords (and helms i've found) are very low on def. So no matter what, monsters would have a very good chance to hit the bard. On top of that, defense will only help against some melee/ranged attackers. So I said, screw it. I'll just try to get weapon block higher, and hopefully chill enemies or use dragon talon to knock them back. An item with chance to cast frost nova is pretty useful. I used a belt where this was its only mod for quite a while.

This is clearly not ideal, and I am sure there will be differing opinions. However, for the first time through a game, without ideal gear, trying to maximize damage, def, resists, block, and whatever else, is simply impossible. I focused on damage. Only in hell have I paid any attention to resists.

Indeed, Horazon's tunnels are pretty decent for book finding. (It's also fun to run through the halls of the blind with an apocalypse merc) Horazon's tunnels might be faster though, and might give better leveling opportunities.


EDIT: Just remembered something I had neglected. Bard weapons, we all know, have very low damage in normal, so even 100% ed won't do much. Look for +max (or +min) damage items. Definitely until nightmare, my best weapons were (some claw) of (+max damage). Also look for socketed items, in which you can put +max damage jewels.

I admit, as far as defense value, it can depend on how your skills turn out. My own character I found that even a 5-10 percent decrease on chance to be hit with my armor made a big difference. It's very difficult to get better. If you had enough weapon block, you could theoretically have a lower armor value and get away with it, but no matter how many points in weapon block you have you're still missing that 5-10 percent. I do see the appeal in using a runeword on armor, thus making the armor a very low armor rating, just for the extra stats. It could work. If I'd found say a high quality unique helmet that was worth using and I had no place else to put in a runeword, I might go with low defense just so I could use it too.

It is true that only the resistances help on the magical ranged attacks from many monsters. Even if it says it has only a chance of hitting, it hits everytime. In Hell I'd often concentrate on attack speed and damage and only equip high resistances to the one stat I needed to get through a specific fight. Then I'd go back to whatever I was before. If I was caught off guard though, it was a pretty quick death. But I found for most fights you had to specialize in whatever area they had a weakness, or you couldn't kill very efficiently. Hell not only requires one normal set and another with 3 gems each for elemental damage (per weapon), but also spare elemental weapons for when one of your blades is an immunity to whatever monster your attacking (in addition to physical immunity). That's a requirement for defeating the game, but not much of an issue at all going through Nightmare. You might think the immunities are not fair when the bard has no real natural elemental attack, until you realize many monsters that aren't physically immune die slowly because they have high physical resistance. aaarrrgh. Kind of involved isn't it!

I have silently following this thread in the last few days and I have to say that very valid points were made in it on the Bard strategy. But let me share a few words from the source, so to speak

The Bard is weaker than the Warrior in terms of life and defense, and way weaker than the Barbarian. And yet, she needs to survive in melee combat. She can hardly get enough health to be able to regularly take damage from monsters, especially on Hell difficulty. And in addition, she needs to pump up Dexterity (in order to equip claw-class weapons), so her Strength isn't as high either, which means she probably wouldn't be able to wear the heaviest armors.

So at this point you're probably asking yourself, why play this character? The Bard is all about speed. She's the fastest running character in the mod and she can get insane amounts of increased attack speed and increased run speed (Frenzy-Ode combo, anyone? ). She can be quick enough to run to a monster, double-hit it and then run away before the monster retaliates.

Sure, Weapon Block is a very good thing to have (it greatly reduces the chance of being hit, and that's without equipping a shield so you can attack with all the power you have), but I don't think high defense is really needed for the Bard. In any case, you probably won't go as high as you wish anyway. Concentrate on speed and damage (as high as you can go, but dual-wield no matter what), and read every Weapon Block book you find

With most of my characters I've had a tendancy to understimate the difficulty of the game and only do so many book runs. Having low weapon block was plain stupid, I should have stayed in early normal longer and found more. (It's so easy to say that when I've already beat that character, I also never received more then a few books each on the level 40 skills!)

update:

http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 020zs1.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 024gv3.jpg

Just beat hell. After act 4 (which was very frustrating because of all of the pi's everywhere), i took a little time to level up with nm baal. I also was almost out of monies, so i ran the act 4 unique several times to get enough cash.

act 5 is much easier for a bard than 4. there are zero intrinsic phys immunes. the only difficulty i had in act 5 was with baal, who has about a billion hitpoints. i think i died 3 times vs him, my merc many more. it took something like a half hour just to whittle him down.

I used a barb merc all the way through. I was tempted at several points to use a Rogue after I found windforce, but I think the choice was probably better. I can put together a gear picture later if anyone is interested. A shockingly large fraction of my stuff was blue.

A couple things:

Lichs and Arch Lichs in hell aren't nearly as terrifying as in normal.

Having no skill to confront PIs seriously hampers the bard. Back up claws with gems was sufficient for the one or two PI bosses who were required to beat, but if I encountered a PI, i had to frenzy and run away before my merc got himself killed.

Perhaps a song in which a portion of damage becomes fire or magic would be valuable?

I am surprised that you made it through the game without a merc, d2modplayer. My bard would have been nowhere near able to do that. My barb merc and I worked as a team. An expensive team in which one member constantly had to be resurrected. But a team nonetheless.

The kick skill is really helpful with the barb merc. He'll go get himself surrounded, and you can run up and kick monsters away from him. This is especially useful when he confronts monsters who can stun him.

The lightnight lizards in act 5 destroyed me.

I wouldn't mind seeing that if it's not a big deal to put together. Mind you, it will be a looong time before I get to Hell difficulty at the rate I'm going (i.e. in terms of time I get to play)


Good to hear. Those 2, along with the Firebug-types (fast to run away) in Acts 2-3 Normal were highly annoying for me, even though the bard is supposed to be fast. Is part of their damage magic-based? I had fire resistance in the 60-75 range against the lich/a-lich and firebugs, and their hits hurt. Oddly, the missiles from the firebats in Act 3 hardly scratched me.


Yeah. Instead of one of those bumper stickers that says "my money and my kid go to X univeristy", we need one that says "my gold stash goes to resurrecting my idiot merc".[/i]